National poll says science degrees "better value for money" than arts - what do you...

I've replied to this posting twice, but for some reason it doesn't appear.

Anyway, science-based undergraduates are always commenting (not complaining, I hope!) about the amount of time they have to spend in 'lectures' compared to their arts-based peers.

I put 'lectures' in inverted commas because this includes laboratory practical sessions. Laboratory practicals, necessarily have to be supervised, even if only from a H$S perspective. Also, laboratory work frequently involves complex and expensive equipment.

The lecture/contact time is necessitated by the fact that science degrees are (perhaps) much more knowledge-dependent than arts degrees. One HAS to understand and be able to apply the theory. (I say 'perhaps' because I have no direct experience of arts-based degrees, but I can imagine that there is a high level of subjectivity involved with many of them. The sciences are highly objective.

The skills acquired by science graduates (matrhematical, practical/technical, interpretive, English-language based (for providing explanations), problem-solving... are transferable and are in high demand, even in fields outside of the sciences. So, yes. They are better value for money, IMO.

It's definitely a prevalent attitude on my undergrad chem course that we are really quite lucky to be paying the same fees as many arts students for much more contact hours. Art History students here have approximately four hours a week, whereas we often have over four hours of lectures in one day. Whilst I think that encouraging self-study is a positive thing and encouraging further reading allows people to discover more about their personal areas of interest, I would feel cheated paying what is essentially an extortionate library subscription fee and a degree which in many people's eyes, says about that much.

I do think it is a crying shame if people are not allowed to study what they are passionate about, which is what would be the case if the cost of some degrees were to rise. In pragmatic terms though, science, technology and medical degrees are far more immediately 'useful' and I'd imagine engineering and medicine degrees pay themselves back nicely through the taxes generated from the higher incomes they offer. Rather then just scrapping funding for all arts-based subjects, I think it would be fairer to allow anyone who could afford to do them to do so and for the best, brightest and most enthusiastic, offer hefty scholarships. Although it's not really fair, I'm not sure there is any way that the inequality that financial background creates in education can be avoided. I wonder though if there is a difference in the income levels of most art and science students, as I'd imagine future income/ job security is more of a concern for lower income students and so they'd make up a greater proportion of science students anyway.

When it comes to hard times, then yes, science degrees should have funding priority but it is important to remember that arts degrees are still very valuable and learning for the sake of learning itself is a wonderful thing to encourage. It would be nice to see a shift in attitude at universities back to that, rather than being so job-market focused. 

"It would be nice to see a shift in attitude at universities back to that, rather than being so job-market focused."
I
think there might now be a chance of that, with F.E. colleges now offering 'Vocational Degrees' it gives the universities a chance to re-focus on rigorous academic subjects - as they did before polytechnics became universities and, at the same time, universities were forced to become more vocational.

That would be great but my concern would be that the situation will not change from what we have at the moment, where vocational options in the form of BTECs and NVQs etc. but they are not considered rigorous enough to compete with their supposedly equivalent academic qualifications which is such a waste of opportunity for so many people. 

I think though the idea of a degree 'having to be an investment for your future career' and a route into a job is never going to leave even the most academic of subjects. There are too many sixth forms at which going to university is just an 'expected' part of your education and I know a lot of people who do most of their activities at uni just for something to put on the CV. As long as there are fees though, I think this attitude will prevail. 

When i was a student in the mid 70's we always had plento of lab work lectures and tutorials and were too busy with writing up lab reports, dissetations etc to be tied up with the social aspects that our art and humanities coleagues had.
Having seen over a long period of time those who have gone into STEM subjects have had far better return on their hard work than their colleagues who have gone into arts and social sciences areas.
Also know from my  ttime at Loughborough University that those who pursued chemistry degrees had over 90% employment on graduating, same can be said for other science based degrees.

A science degrees value becomes compounded with increasing amounts of experience pre-graduation. Most science undergraduates who believe a good GPA correlates with a good job are in for a terrible shock after graduating, as they will struggle to find even lab technician jobs in the practical world, where employers will often choose someone with more experience. 

As an undergraduate who did research with the government and in highly funded academic labs because of my experience, I can attest that making the right connections and compounding your degree with experience is the most important thing you can do, whether it's for academia or industry. Oh, and publications are the golden eggs of experience. If you can crank publications out with you as the co-author, it makes your value soar. Of course however, experience isn't the end-all-be-all of jobs, you must also have the sociable skills and personality that many employers seek.

Keep this thing in mind and you'll stay on top of your market and be able to differentiate yourself far better from your community than art majors can from theirs.

Some Universities are now getting their own dedicated buildings based on STEM subjects as the backing from Government undelines the subjects importance to economy and also over the long term science graduates have better potential to get on further than arts contemporaries!.

A friends son who completed a Masters degree in an graphics subject could not obtain a post in that ar despite lokking for quite a whiole and now working in banking, another coleagues son whose degree was science based has progressed in his own subject area very quickly.

​​

The other aspect of having studied Chemsitry is that it has allowed me to think of problems from different angles and analyse them from differeent perspectives.  This form of anlytical thought can also be used in dealing with mangement issues realting not only to scientific ones but in other areas too.

​Working now as a freelancer at the interface of Chemsitry&Management  is use my skills to help people challenge  situations in whih they find themselves in and offer possible solutions by usisng qestionning techniques to drive reflection on them!

​Also use my life expereiences to help drive others into science based courses as likley jobs to emerge on grduation are likley to be mote satisfying and also have opportunity to get posts overseas and not just in UK!

Further to previous posts, still believe that STEM subjects are likely to pay moe over a lifetime than their arts counterparts. Know that most Chemists land jobs pretty quickly and with expanding ares of nanotechnology and other fields,   this could be a great opportunity to get involved in as rewarss go further than pay like job satisfaction, recognition and long term prospects.

​You need to take a longer term view of what your career could turn out to be, have vision, vitality and courage to move on!

​See your career as a journey and look beyond the horizon, don't be afraid to work elsewhere once graduated, a lot of students who passed through Lougboorugh's Chemistry department are now working overseas especially in USA.

exactly

Science degrees are also highly regarded in Far East and if you wan to travel and work there its a good opportunity to do so. A collegue for mine who was a Teaching Fellow is curren tly using his chemcial knowledge by teaching at Ning Bo University in China. Another used his knowledge of Chhemistry to work in USA as a engineer in Analytical instrument Manufacture and testing and is now working in Germany on a development project.

​Quite a few of my other academic colleagues went over to work in USA in am ixtue of areas and still wwork there even after 30 odd years so worth doing such a degree as it opens new vistas and opportunities.

​As a Coach and Mentor i can help people once they have finished their degrees by channeling their skillsets in to areas where they could realy make a difference an dhave a satisfying career, i also help thos who want to change direction within subect area.

It will always be Science vs Art topic. Well, both are important. With out science, a lot of knowledge will left unexplore and without art, out life will be dull! But the core of the world is science, because we can live better with the knowledge of science. 

Re Chetan's response,

In some areas Art can be used to promote scientific concepts and also Artists need to remember that all of their paints are based on chemical formulations so there is a form of synergy there!

Hope that also helps in understanding how art and science can work together in some areas.

In my experience, most of my colleagues who the sciences were able to climb their respective career ladders as there was less competition for jobs in those times and in many cases there was support for them to grow their roles as line managers were aware of importance to economy from scientific work.

Also had a good working relationship with managers as there is a synergy especially at the interface of Chemistry and Management where by we combine two types of learnings for  the benefit of mankind.

Yes I would go with that and especially now!

Post Covid research and development of new technologies which evolve from Science learnings are likely to lead to new products being developed and then sold on global markets. Also look at how Artificial Intelligence is likely to play a part in predicting changes and also in automation of processes.

Consider also how rational thinking can help businesses in making decisions on which processes are viable an those are that are not by evaluating what is happening! 

I  have used that sort of methodology at working at the interface of Chemistry and Management and  my experience as a Chemist has helped me to SMART some objectives which led to goals being achieved by tweaking existing processes.

On top of that you need to see how much Scientists and Engineers are able to earn  and compare that against those working in arts or humanities!

Also look at where other countries are pushing and promoting their students in those Science disciplines and what outcomes they achieve!

Not surprising. At the moment, we need specialists who can work more with society and data than with something else. At the same time, technical education is much better paid. For example, here you can see the average salaries in all areas, not only technical. And while the price is below-market prices, it can be understood that technical education is more profitable in the future.

Art in its various mediums is vital in sustaining life. It should be viewed as highly important to education to create a thriving society with a meaningful expression, imagination, and flourishing cultures.  Junk Removal Spring Valley
 

Very interesting blog. A lot of blogs I see these days don't really provide anything that I'm interested in, but I'm most definitely interested in this one. Just thought that I would post and let you know. Cheers from  wall tile removal
 

Hi John

Science degrees are more intensive and  hard work especially those who do extended Masters programmes but at the end of the day the pain of extra work is repaid by getting better jobs and hence recognition. Also those who take those programmes can apply for chartered status a lot more quicker from their professional bodies and that in turn offers even more opportunities.

As we emerge from the pandemic i am aware a lot more young people are being drawn into subjects allied to vaccines and biomedical sciences.

You also have to  consider what you study will have in terms of global economy and your ability to use your science degree overseas. On of my friends did Computing and IT degree at Salford then a MBA T Loughborough University before heading down under to land a great job in Sydney!

Quite a few of the PhD's who did their studies in my former department have superb jobs in Canada & USA  also in EU  as science degrees are highly regarded in those countries too!

If you need any advise please contact me.

Kind regards

Andy
MRSC MIScT FCMI

In a recent paper in Note and Records from the Royal Society of London, the difference between oeconomy and laboratory work was investigated. Philosophical exploration has only really been studied in the Lincei Society, Paris Science and letters and the Royal Society since the late C17th. Prior to this the dissection of fish in taverns etc was common. Oeconomy or house work to elicit repairs was another source of study prior to Men of Letters at Gresham House, say.
The experience of the common artisan and the gentleman collector eg Taylor White shows  the link between art and the parallel, although with less rigour than today , science .
This link between the plants man and the biologist exists today for example. In Californian boosterism we see the exceptionalism common to refined education today which maybe as much art than science. 
Hence not only is science study worth paying for so too is art.

Hi Trevor
Science and art can work together, all you need to have a vision on how that can be  used in practise.

Also one has to consider how a subject like Chemistry is used in an artistic sense! if you look at how chemistry is used in paints and other coverings you get an  idea on how Science helps Art and also in particular conservation of paintings and their  restoration!

Also  in the light of greening of our environment maybe art can  be  utilised  within a scientific area and this is reflected in future degree  programmes, something to consider in the future!

Kind regards

Andy